Best Cigars for Extraction

CAAB
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:49 pm

Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

Understanding that flavor is subjective; looking for what the best cigars are for PG extraction? I am conducting another round of extractions, want to try 1 or 2 cigars. I like bold and spicy, but open to other suggestions and perhaps an idea of flavor notes.

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

CAAB wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:50 pm
(..) want to try 1 or 2 cigars. I like bold and spicy, but open to other suggestions and perhaps an idea of flavor notes.
well what I would suggest is that, rather than buy rolled cigars, for bold and spicy you get some Nicaraguan Ligero leaf from LeafOnly. The reason is two fold. First the price of quality rolled cigars is just outrageous now. So for the price of one or two high quality cigars you will get 1/4 lb of pure leaf. Second is that from an extraction flavor standpoint you would be better off to extract the pure filler leaf. If you extract a whole cigar you will wind up with a flavor blend of the filler, binder, and wrapper. Nothing wrong with that, but to start out I think you will get your bearings faster if you just deal with one part of the cigar at a time.

here is a link to the LeafOnly Search that you might use for a shopping cart of the type of flavor profile you are talking about:
https://www.leafonly.com/search/Nicaraguan%20Ligero

I have many cigar and cigar leaf notes scattered around this BBS, but here is a few I cut and pasted. If you need samples I can send you some. That might be a good idea, as the world of cigar leaf can be a little confusing, and some of these cigars extract a flavor profile that is much cleaner and milder and worlds away from the combustable experience. Extracting rolled cigars is an "It is what it is" adventure, and many times what you think it will extact is not what actually happens.

Also, the time lines are very long. Those of us that have done rolled cigar extractions typically use a full 12 month in PG. And that is another point. I know that you [mention]CAAB[/mention] have been trying to not use PG, so that will be a real problem as you will need the complete extraction power of PG. Using EA is probably not going to make it work.

============ various cut an pastes from my many notes in this catagory=====

Partagas Black Label Classico
This is a maceration made from the actual named cigar, and has the charastic smooth and mellow vape quality of all such extractions, however in this case the more robust quality is picked up from the filler which is blended with a mixture of Nicaraguan Ligero and Dominican Piloto Cubano Ligero. In the world of DIY NET macerations from real cigars are rare, and this is such a example.

La Gloria Cubana Cigars
This is a maceration made from the actual named cigar, and has the charastic smooth and mellow vape quality of all such extractions, however in this case the more robust quality is picked up from the filler which is blended with a mixture of Nicaraguan Ligero and Dominican Piloto Cubano Ligero.

============Leaf from LeafOnly=============
Leafs:
FRONTO
This is a mixture of various leaf that is intended for use on the cigar rolling table as wrapper. For vaping purposes I obtain scrap that is a mixture of various types as it is not important to have uniformity of appearance as we are macerating it, not rolling it on the outside of a cigar. This leaf produces a light in intensity and pure, and very clean and mellow vape that is different from pipe blends.

Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Jalapaa-
The vape profile is very near to my extract of the finished cigar Jose Marti Nicaraguan, although lighter smoother and with distinct room filling top notes of spicy aromatic tobacco. Very authentic cigar only tobacco vape. Works well as a smooth and mild ADV or a mix component to add cigar aromatics. Recommended.

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

well what I would suggest is that, rather than buy rolled cigars, for bold and spicy you get some Nicaraguan Ligero leaf from LeafOnly. The reason is two fold. First the price of quality rolled cigars is just outrageous now. So for the price of one or two high quality cigars you will get 1/4 lb of pure leaf. Second is that from an extraction flavor standpoint you would be better off to extract the pure filler leaf.
Also, the time lines are very long. Those of us that have done rolled cigar extractions typically use a full 12 month in PG.
Yikes, 12 months... Well, something to look forward to for next summer. Funny thing is that I ordered a La Gloria Cubana Cigar from my own research. And a Padron 1964 Anniversary Series, for sentimental reasons.

BTW, I am leaning more towards the idea of PG lately. I have found my sensitivity issues may be more related to wattage and nicotine level.
============Leaf from LeafOnly=============
I took a look and found some interesting tobacco leaves. I think I'll give that avenue a go. That website looks like quite the rabbit hole if you have a good extraction method. Do you find that you still need 12 months with the Fronto and Ligero Jalapa in PG?

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

CAAB wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:25 pm
And a Padron 1964 Anniversary Series, for sentimental reasons.
Now it would be almost criminal to chop that work of art up and make a vape out of it. Better just smoke that one or the tobacco Gods will look down on you unkindly -
CAAB wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:25 pm
Do you find that you still need 12 months with the Fronto and Ligero Jalapa in PG?
No I have done as little as 3 months on both those and they turn out very fine. After 3 months, you can withdraw 10mls or so to experiment with and tide you over, and then let the rest of it sit for progressively longer extraction time if you feel it necessary.

And yes, LeafOnly is somewhat of a playground. They have a great 'search' feature and if you plug in terms like 'Virginia' you will see that you could be busy for years sampling around through all of it. As I understand it LeafOnly was started as a hobby venture, but it is maturing into a real deal. Very interesting for sure.

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

Now it would be almost criminal to chop that work of art up and make a vape out of it. Better just smoke that one or the tobacco Gods will look down on you unkindly
I will have to think about that one. It's the one I'm most familiar with in terms of smoking, so I thought that it would be a good litmus test for comparing the smoke to vape experience. Although like you say, maybe it's better to save it for a rainy day and combust it the old fashioned way...
And yes, LeafOnly is somewhat of a playground.
I purchased the Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Jalapa and an Organic Pennsylvania Broadleaf. Somewhat unrelated to a cigar leaf extraction, I purchased an Organic Burley, and an Organic Canadian Virginia Flue Cured from LeafOnly. And that is it this year for vaping related expenses!

I am going to run a series of concurrent extractions, one set using PG exclusively, and another set using a VG/PGA blended solvent. I may consider 10% H2O in the VG, including the 5% H2O present in the Everclear. It appears this experiment will take the better part of a year to complete, considering there are two rolled cigars in play. I'm going to go for 115°F in a hot water bath for 8 hours for both solvents, followed by shelving it in the basement. Will sample immediately after the hot water bath, followed by monthly sampling until the optimum flavor profile is reached.

I'm reluctant to send the last series of H2O samples out because of potential contamination concerns, but I'll send you out some of the VG extracts once they are deemed complete, and maybe some of that 1964 Padron if I decide to cut it up and put it in a jar.

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

So the short of it is that I have sampled some of the individual cigar leaf extracts you sent, and I found them interesting, but really missing something. As you have mentioned before, they are ingredients intended to be brought together into a whole.

Not knowing what I was doing and being somewhat impatient, I blended a whole bunch of the extracts together. I was very surprised at the result; the whole was definitely more than the sum of the parts. In fact, I could see how blending your own individual leaf extracts could result in a superior end product.

That said, LeafOnly is having a Black Friday sale coming up. I was thinking of expanding my extractions beyond the Pennsylvania Broadleaf and the Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Jalapa.

In your mind, from your experience, would you have a list of must-have tobacco leaves that you suggest for a broad sampling? I was watching a video on all the different leaves, and it is a little over my head. There are binder and wrapper leaves for example, that I wonder if they aren't strictly necessary for a vaper because they are more of a cigar rolling leaf and lend minimal flavor profile. Of maybe a lower grade can be purchased because you don't need a honking intact leaf, you could have imperfections, as it's going in a jar.

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

CAAB wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:05 am

Not knowing what I was doing and being somewhat impatient, I blended a whole bunch of the extracts together. I was very surprised at the result; the whole was definitely more than the sum of the parts. In fact, I could see how blending your own individual leaf extracts could result in a superior end product.
Glad you are having good luck on the blending of the cigar extractions. If you want a "ready to go" complete and very excellent cigar extraction (no later blending necessary..) I STRONGLY suggest you try :

https://www.smokingpipes.com/tobacco/by-maker/Tabac-Manil/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=151938

I have been vaping it in my daily rotation for over a year and fail to tire of it.
CAAB wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:05 am
That said, LeafOnly is having a Black Friday sale coming up. I was thinking of expanding my extractions beyond the Pennsylvania Broadleaf and the Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Jalapa.

In your mind, from your experience, would you have a list of must-have tobacco leaves that you suggest for a broad sampling? I was watching a video on all the different leaves, and it is a little over my head. There are binder and wrapper leaves for example, that I wonder if they aren't strictly necessary for a vaper because they are more of a cigar rolling leaf and lend minimal flavor profile. Of maybe a lower grade can be purchased because you don't need a honking intact leaf, you could have imperfections, as it's going in a jar.
...if you go to this part of their site
( https://www.leafonly.com/cigar-tobacco-leaf/tobacco-leaves ) and scroll down to the fillers and binders you can see a lot of stuff that looks really great to try. But, again, my TIS is not your TIS so I only speak for myself here on this following list:
(these are all fillers and binders, as wrapper leaf will require the effort of later blending...although some of this may need blending as well, that is just the reality of PURE Leaf extractions.. )

NOTE: This following is not really a "must have list" but a list of items that 'caught my eye' and that I would like to sample. My 'Must Have List' would be something different, and maybe I should post that list under a separate Topic. If you take the effort to 'sharp eye' through my ramblings over the years you can pick up what I consider 'must haves', but I can see that it might be nice for me to just list them in seperate Post of: "'Best of / Must Have Cigar Leaf Extractions' ...

Aged Cameroon Seco Filler
Aged Mexican San Andres Viso Filler
Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Esteli Filler
Honduran Binder
Aged Honduran Ligero Filler
Aged Brazilian Arapiraca Filler

and, of course, if you can get a further deal on lower grade sold at a steep $ discount that is alway worth a try, as you note, "it is going in a jar" so we do not need the mechanical or cosmetic perfection that a roller needs.

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

My list of interest is similar to yours. The one thing I observed was that the Mexican San Andres Viso filler was out of stock, so I thought that I would try the Mexican San Andres Wrapper, but I wasn't sure that would result in a similar extraction, aside from the steeper price.

I was also thinking the CT 1LS Broadleaf Wrapper, because I hear favorable reviews of Connecticut Broadleaf varietals.

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

So here is the next list of PG - VG/PGA comparison extractions I will have running. I will probably have them go a year in the jar.

CT Havana Primed Ungraded Leaf
Aged Indonesian Sumatra Seco Filler
Mexican San Andres Wrapper
Honduran Binder
Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Esteli Filler
Aged Brazilian Arapiraca Filler

At some later date, I may start extracting new cigars from time to time just to compare to manually blended single leaf extractions. I am suspecting that the blended single leaf extracts may turn out to be a superior product after some careful work feeling out the ratios. After doing research, I have come to realize that cigars often have a ratio of leaves that have little to do with flavor and more to do with burn quality. Also, there is glue used to bind cigar wrappers whose effect on an NET I could only guess at.

With the leftover leaves not making it into an extraction jar, I have made a small investment in a tupperdor. Basically just a tupperware bin with gaskets, and a hygrometer inside with some Spanish cedar. I will be storing all cigar leaves I don't extract in the bin to age. This will help marry the flavors of the leaves and to absorb some of the aroma of the Spanish cedar. My hope is that future extractions of these leaves will improve from their aging in the tupperdor.

For giggles I also bought some cigar glue. I might try rolling a cigar or two at some point. Nothing serious, more for educational purposes.

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

On whole-leaf extractions, do you remove the stem? I am wondering what flavor profile a stem might impart. Chewed on a stem for the heck of it; it was pretty harsh relative to the leaf. Best guess is that it would add robustness.

I know from a cigar rolling standpoint the stem is removed, but I imagined that was more for burning quality.

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