Best Cigars for Extraction

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

CAAB wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:41 pm
On whole-leaf extractions, do you remove the stem? I am wondering what flavor profile a stem might impart.
Yeah probably contribute nothing very good, I pull my stems...

CAAB
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by CAAB »

Stems pulled. Got another round of extractions waiting for a year. Let me know if you are interested in any of the whole leaves Peter_Ramish, I can send you some to try extracting yourself. I have them sitting in a tupperdor now with some Spanish cedar. I have everything organic LeafOnly has to offer, in addition to the cigar leaves mentioned above.

Strongly considering just having everything sit for one year, instead of waiting for the six month mark and sampling. Maybe just pull 1 or two of the pipe tobaccos to hold me over.

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

CAAB wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:24 pm
.. Let me know if you are interested in any of the whole leaves..

Strongly considering just having everything sit for one year, instead of waiting for the six month mark and sampling. Maybe just pull 1 or two of the pipe tobaccos to hold me over.
I sent you a PM on your generous offer.. I know what you mean on the "just let 'em sit" method. If you have a good deal of jars (10 ot 20 or more) then this makes a lot of sense. I have a limit now of no more than 6 jars, as the whole hobby/project was getting entirely out of hand here. Actually what I really was hoping for is that someone would take some of my abandoned already made extractions that have been sitting in the fridge for over two years. I have many, many Latakia and English Pipe Shop Blends here. My tastes have changed and I never vape them anymore. I hate to just throw them down the drain, but eventually that is what will have to happen.

If anyone is lurking around here and reading this, and is interested, then just PM me or email me, and I would be happy to send them out for FREE !!!

darwindesign
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by darwindesign »

Peter_Ramish wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:22 pm
the world of cigar leaf can be a little confusing, and some of these cigars extract a flavor profile that is much cleaner and milder and worlds away from the combustable experience...

Also, the time lines are very long. Those of us that have done rolled cigar extractions typically use a full 12 month in PG...

Partagas Black Label Classico
La Gloria Cubana Cigars
I'm curious as to you selection of these two cigars if you don't mind. Were these Cigars ones that were in your preference to smoke and they just happened to to extract well, or was it more along the lines of I tried a bunch and these came out better than average? Do the extracts you make from these two cigars remind you at all of their profiles when smoking them? I ask because I snuck a taste of a Cain Daytona I put in PG four weeks ago and, although I enjoyed the flavor, it doesn't have any of the same flavors as a vape that it does when smoked.

As for the extended steep times what is happening to the extract in month 2-12 vs the first 4-6 weeks? Is this just a matter of concentration or is the flavor profile itself changing? If the flavor profile then are we talking just nuanced notes or does the primary part of the profile shift?

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

darwindesign wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:01 pm
.. or was it more along the lines of I tried a bunch and these came out better than average? Do the extracts you make from these two cigars remind you at all of their profiles when smoking them?
I posted those two for a recommendation to the first time cigar extractor / experimenter so that he might have relatively good luck out of the stating gate. I hope the point is getting across that very few cigars will extract to a 'ready to vape, full flavor profile".. most will extract to a mild single profile of (usually) the fillers flavor profile. The binders and the wrappers will usually not make it to through the extraction, too mild and although balanced by weight by the professional blender for a combustion blend, the ratio is out of wack for a vape flavor profile. This is a point of frustration to those trying to extract cigars.

A much better route is to extract the Pure natural leafs (most of us are getting our leaf samples from leafonlydotcom). Then use those extractions to combine into a flavor profile of your liking. You have full control that way and escape the "it is what it is" problem. If you extract a commercial blended cigar that was created by its maker for use as a combustion flavor, you will NOT get that profile in an extraction. You have to take a different route to get there, that is: extract each leaf type separately, then combine/ blend the extractions.
darwindesign wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:01 pm
As for the extended steep times what is happening to the extract in month 2-12 vs the first 4-6 weeks? Is this just a matter of concentration or is the flavor profile itself changing? If the flavor profile then are we talking just nuanced notes or does the primary part of the profile shift?
That is an interesting point. I never thought of it exactly that way, but I would say what is happening is sort of like a house made of lego blocks: i.e. Over time each one of the "flavor blocks" transfers to the extraction and over a great deal of time all the blocks appear, forming a complete profile. It is just that the process takes a lot of time, and the finished profile will surprise you as not being what it is when combusted. But that is not to say that it is not a reward at the end of the wait. For example, because you mentioned or asked about my extraction of a long favored smoked stick, I will mention a particular one that I must have smoke a zillion of over the years: Jose Marti, Robusto from their early Nicaraguan factory. That extraction is nothing like puffing on a lighted one, but delightful in its own way, and thoroughly enjoyable.

I guess I need to make a post on suggested leafonlydotcom starter extractions. You can get most of that info from just carefully reading some of the previous posts around here, (see CAABs list above, and also many other similar posts are around the BBS), but I would here suggest this brief list (by no means complete, but a place to start) If you have these, then you can start post extraction blending adventures, and have a lot of productive fun:
-Perique
sourced from: WholeLeafTobaccco.com
-Brightleaf Virginia Flue Cured - Sweet
sourced from: leafonlydotcom
-Burley
sourced from: leafonlydotcom
-Aged Nicaraguan Ligero Jalapaa-
sourced from: leafonlydotcom
-FRONTO - (this was a mixed 'scrap' offering at a bargain price!!!, a real find!)
sourced from: leafonlydotcom
Just as a sort of counter point to this subject you should know that extracting from a professionally blended cigar is by NO means an assurance of success to get to a good vape. :lol: For example, Several various Cohiba Dominican examples extracted to flavored junk ! Just horrible !

darwindesign
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by darwindesign »

Thanks for the reply. I understand your point with the single leaf tobaccos and can appreciate where you opinion is coming from. I still have interest in the topic of making extracts from finished cigars. To me the added cost is of little import as in the end your total cost per ml is going to be low compared to commercial ejuice. If the maceration process takes a year i'm okay with that as well as long as I can get a sense of where it is going after a month. I'm used to waiting years for Cigars to hit their golden spot so having some jars sitting around that I don't have to worry about RH seems kind of trivial. I can also see where some people might find it problematic slicing up a expertly rolled piece of art. The way I see it they would be right if I was planning on chopping up my Arturo Fuente Anejo Shark, but that would be much different than doing the same with a 8-5-8 maduro.

The thinking behind wanting to explore this path is that single leaf tobaccos that you can purchase are not quite the same as what a cigar is rolled with. A cigar has had it various tobaccos chosen and often fermented to have particular tastes. These tobaccos, at least on better cigars, are sorted so they fit a very specific profile. Once rolled the drying out normally kicks off another fermentation process, and there is frequently yet another if you age them yourself, all of which refine flavor. So my thought is that cigars may have the potential to produce an easily reproducible consistent extraction that potentially could contain complexities above less processed and aged tobaccos. Additionally I happen to have a decent point of reference for various cigars so if I was able to ascertain something akin to 'this cigar flavor' translates to 'this vape flavor' then I might be able to make educated guesses on what may be good candidates.

As for the extraction time this is what actually is the biggest unknown in my mind. I could see if someone was trying to pull flavors from connecticut or the volado priming of almost any varietal then it would be problematic as there is not much flavor there to start with. This also seems rather pointless as they primarily provide filler and mouth feel and are not something that would be expected to be providing a flavor profile as much as just pushing it one way or another in their combustible state. My first try at this is with a cigar that is a Nicaraguan puro that is mostly ligero, so pretty far away from mild tobacco, but four weeks in the strength of the extraction is fairly close to the two pipe blends I started at the same time (Peter Stokkebye Luxury Bullseye Flake and Dan Tobacco Shannon) which i'm enjoying at only 10% in a finished mix. At this point i'm wondering whether to filter the batch or not. If the flavor profile is going to stay the same and sitting on it for some extended period of time is only going to get me a concentrate I mix at 5-8% then that is a waste of time to me to just maximize yield.

Unfortunately I have very little frame of reference with pretty much everything vaping as i've been doing it less than two months. I have determined a preference for the NET type of flavor so i'm just working my way to finding my DIY ADV.

darwindesign
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by darwindesign »

Peter_Ramish wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:25 am
Just as a sort of counter point to this subject you should know that extracting from a professionally blended cigar is by NO means an assurance of success to get to a good vape. :lol: For example, Several various Cohiba Dominican examples extracted to flavored junk ! Just horrible !
I would counter that the Dominican Cohiba was junk to start with. I'm not actually that big of a fan of the real deal either (just a matter of flavor preference), but they are miles away from what General Cigar makes.

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

darwindesign wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:37 pm
My first try at this is with a cigar that is a Nicaraguan puro that is mostly ligero, so pretty far away from mild tobacco,(...) which i'm enjoying at only 10% in a finished mix. At this point i'm wondering whether to filter the batch or not. If the flavor profile is going to stay the same and sitting on it for some extended period of time is only going to get me a concentrate I mix at 5-8% then that is a waste of time to me to just maximize yield.

Unfortunately I have very little frame of reference with pretty much everything vaping as i've been doing it less than two months. I have determined a preference for the NET type of flavor so i'm just working my way to finding my DIY ADV.
A couple of comments: That Nicaraguan sounds like a nice choice, I think it might work out well for you. Give it some time. A trick some of us use when developing a new extract is to part off a few mls or so and sample test it, then let the rest sit. In another month part off another few mls and test again. Keep repeating the cycle until you are confidant that additional extraction time is not helping the profile.

Not withstanding the fact that I did write an article on how to speed up extraction times, and I understand that the long time lines involved have concerned everyone who has attempted tobacco extractions, BUT there is a second maturing stage involved that occurs later on after the initial extraction of the main chemical components. see viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13 for more details on this subject. -I need to start a specific thread about the whole concept and practice of "filtering".. But a glimpse of my thoughts on that: I personally do not filter my extracts. I use a centrifuge at a low rate which leaves micro fine particles (+5um) in suspension. My experience is that this leads to later and very beneficial flavor development similar to the way red wines develop over time (sometimes in the scale of years). This development is in a space beyond the initial extraction, what might be called, "maturing", a very subtle but quite noticeable blending of separate flavor points or "nodules" into a "whole".

So the point is: if you all of sudden decide at, say for example 2 months extraction time of your Nicaraguan puro, to "filter" it to less than -3um then you will "freeze" it at that point. I know many experienced tobacco extraction aficionados do this sort of sub micro filtering, in some cases down to -1um, as a matter of routine and are happy with the results they get. But go cautiously onto that territory.

You will get to your ADV, not to worry ! :P Think of the adventure of DIY-NET the same way you think of your wine cellar :idea: BTW, I do agree with your comment about ".. the Dominican Cohiba was junk to start with.." The whole evil trademark stealing by GC is irritating as hell.

darwindesign
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by darwindesign »

That is a pretty interesting article. I've read quite a bit on different forums about heat bumps, ultrasonic, centrifuge, PGA extracts, etc. but i'm currently limiting myself to minimal as I get my feet wet and get a feel for the land. That is an interesting point about over filtering and I will have to do some tests both ways once I decide to harvest. I purchased 2.5um filters because I read that mold spores are 3um and that was the primary thing I wanted to make sure was removed.

Do you have any thoughts on moisture content of the tobacco prior to extraction? I've read that water in ejuice is best to avoid as much as possible. At the same time experience tells me that once tobacco is dried past a certain point there is a flavor loss that does not return when rehydrated. I store my cigars at 70F @ 60RH which is the minimum before the more delicate leaves get too brittle. Would this be an ideal hydration level or should I push it a bit lower?

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Peter_Ramish
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Re: Best Cigars for Extraction

Post by Peter_Ramish »

darwindesign wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:38 pm
Do you have any thoughts on moisture content of the tobacco prior to extraction?
This question above was split off from here so that we can continue on with this interesting subject in its own dedicated area...

see: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=71 for that discussion...

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