Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post Reply
User avatar
Peter_Ramish
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: California

Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Peter_Ramish »

There is a famous blend , Dunhill Royal Yacht, that is now gone with the winds of History as Dunhill folded up shop.

I have an extraction of this that was made by @Kinnikinnick and it is just spectacular.

Because I can no longer get the feedstock I set on a mission to try and duplicate it from extractions of Pure Leaf Varietals. Because, undoubtedly Dunhill pressed or processed their original blend in some fashion I will most likely never be able to clone it exactly.

Here is the description from tobaccoreviews which gives a lot of clues as to how this might be cloned:
Truly a luxurious tobacco. Virginias are carefully conditioned to ensure sweetness. They are added to rich, heavier and cooler Virginias. A unique flavor is added to the final blend to enhance the subtle and piquant aroma. Lemon and bronze Virginia leaves are carefully conditioned and are added to rich heavy body Virginias, a unique flavour is added to the final blend.
Here is another review:
. The recipe behind "Royal Yacht" remains a secret, but the general formula is crushed empire Virginias, perhaps doused in honey and vinegar, which are mixed with some Burley and pressed into cakes, then separated and soaked in a "secret sauce" which resembles a mixture of cognac and fruit juices that convey some of the sweet-sour spiciness of Perique without having Perique in the blend. In this way, "Royal Yacht" is like a big brother to "Elizabethan Mixture," which does contain Perique, and fits well within the Dunhill product line as well as appealing to those who like a stouter blend in the English style.
I have got pretty close with these two following recipes, but I have more work to do.

Here is my current testing:

Sample#2:
Va/Per Royal Yacht Clone Tester
30 Day Skim’ed Extraction Samples
4g LO American Virginia Flue Cured 2013
2g LO Perique. and mixed with
5g Pure VG
0.7 Nic…

and then I moved on to this one:

Sample#3: (more Royal Yacht testing )
.. this one with the SWEET vrs the 2013 definitely closer to real RY
Va/Per Royal Yacht Clone Tester
60 Day Skim’ed Extraction Samples
4g LO Bright Leaf Virginia Flue Cured - Sweet
2g LO Perique.
6g Pure VG
0.7 Nic…

NOTE: Since the two Virginias are not 'ready' as they are still infusing and have several more months to go, I did use 'skimmed' samples out of the jar. So the final proportions will most likely change when it all falls together later. I just wanted to see if I could begin to approach the flavor profile and get to a potentially successful clone. With this initial testing: I think it can be done.

NOTE: Update 6/22/2020: I have finished and filtered the Virginia's and their flavor profile turned out extremely well. When experimienting along with them, it turns out that besides using them to clone Royal Yacht they also will form recipes that closely resemble American Cigarettes. Please see:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=49&p=192#p192
for details on those blends.

User avatar
Peter_Ramish
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: California

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Peter_Ramish »

When talking about my use of Perique as a way of creating a flavor profile to mimic (clone) the famous Dunhill Royal Yacht, [mention]Kinnikinnick[/mention] had this to say:
I know the RY is a combo of 3 Virginia’s... but, I’m not going to sweat trying to find that combo. If a little Perique can give it what it needs, so be it..
This brings up an interesting discussion about methods of approach that might be used when trying to re-create or clone an existing tobacco blend from a commercial pipe tobacco or cigar manufacturer.

I think there are two possible methods of approach:

1.) find as much information as possible about the tobaccos and methods of preparation used in the original blends and try to get as close to duplicating that as possible.

2.) carefully understand, by sampling an extracted vapeable sample of the original blend, try getting as close as possible using the selection of flavor profiles that you have in your collection of extractions no matter their named feedstock origin.

I am a fan of the second method. Here’s why: I think that, although the first method might work in some cases, it has a couple of big defects.

One is that information on how the blending house created the blend is notoriously ridden with “street talk” and wildly inaccurate “guesses”. As an example, take the sample of Royal Yacht in question. Although the base of Virginia is accurate, the suggestion that it has a “plum” topping is just a rumor that was started by several tobacco reviewers. Dunhill never, at any time, said they used Plum flavoring or that they used any topping at all. The second issue is that the flavors from the original ingredients of the feedstock will react from combustion very differently than from extraction into a vape. This alone might give you a flavor chase down a road that goes nowhere in terms of creating a vape work-a-like.

I can’t resist telling you a one liner that, of all things, I heard from a veterinarian, when I had a sick cat on his table. I was curious how he approached the problem of diagnosing and treating an animal that will not respond verbally to questions like, “When did you start feeling bad? Where does it hurt? “ he said, “Since we can’t get an accurate history we just deal; with what we see in front of us”. So true.

In the interest of ‘science’ I tried adding some INW Plum synth to a couple of possible blends of extracted Virginia. The experiment went in the wrong flavor direction. It took me away from duplicating the Royal Yacht as, typically, all my efforts to add synths into Pure Leaf Extracts do. As I thought would happen, I got a flavor profile that had sharp 'node points' of single and distinctive single flavor elements that spiked above the base profile. No matter how little I dialed back the addition percentage, that background drum beat of “There’s synth flavor spikes here..” No matter how hard you try to ignore it, it interferes and annoys.

Another point of interest is that the combining of Perique into the Virginia leads to a very different taste perception across your palate as either the Virginia or the Perique alone. The blended flavor is remarkably different in total character than either of the two bases. Unfortunately since this is just text written into a BBS message board and not ‘smell-a-vision” I can’t possible demonstrate this phenomena. Try it yourself.

This sort of flavor blending and creation effect is well understood by chefs. Diagrammatic Flavor Wheels are common in professional Chef and Culinary schools. The site https://www.famous-smoke.com/cigar-flavor-wheel created one of their own.
Click the link for a BIG version of this thumbnail: Using the wheel in regards to the Royal Yacht, starting from "Plum", you would be advised to move 5 to 10 places up the Flavor Wheel into the realm of "Citrus" and experiment adding components from that sector perhaps Lemon, or move in the opposite direction 8 places down to "Fermented" and choose Tannin. This is where I went with the addition of Perique and it worked! I suppose, if you really stretch the point you could possibly say that in the extraction sample I have of real Dunhill Royal Yacht there ~might~ be a component in there from moving up to the Citrus part of the wheel, but, even if that is true, it is very ~very~ subtle.


Image

User avatar
Peter_Ramish
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: California

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Peter_Ramish »

well, I guess I have been living under a rock, and i did not realize that the commercial blenders have tried their hannd at cloning this fine tobacco. This came to my attention when @ Kinnikinnick happened to send me a PM with a picture of the Peterson try at this old line tobacco.

So I have a tin on order, and we will see what we get :lol: I don't trust the commercial "re-makes" of old line tobacco, as they are never what the original was.

it seems a difference in opinion on the "reviews".. here is a couple of street reviews I came across:
Posted by Will on 22nd Dec 2020
Been smoking pipes since the late 60's. I have tried too many blends than I can remember, most are forgotten. A tobacco like Royal Yacht will not be forgotten, excellent tobacco, IMO. I prefer Royal Yacht a little dryer than many smokers would like but each to their own. I detect no difference between Dunhill and Peterson's. I sincerely appreciate that Royal Yacht is still with us in original form.
-and-
Posted by Nicotine Man on 20th Nov 2019
The Peterson version of Royal Yacht is a weaker strength, harsh version with no discernible plum whatsoever. What once I would have said was perhaps the best tobacco in the world is merely a solid average. I don't know what happened, but something did.
Image
-photo credit @ Kinnikinnick

User avatar
Peter_Ramish
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: California

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Peter_Ramish »

Since this subject has raised its ugly head again, ( :D ) I thought I would return to doing another A/B test to see if my memory was playing tricks on me or not.

So: - I have an original sample of the the true (and very rare!) Dunhill Royal Yacht extract as provided to me by @Kinnikinnick
- and I remixed this clone:
Royal Yacht Clone Tester
Using the style of classic VaPer mixtures:
4g LO Bright Leaf Virginia Flue Cured - Sweet
2g LO Perique.
8g 25/75 PG/VG
0.7 Nic…

Sure enough, the clone is working well. To be very critical I will make the following two observations:

- a cosmetic item: when mixed as a final vapeable juice the color tint of the mixed two samples is very close.
Of course that is just not a meaningful metric, but it is nice that the clone 'at least looks like the original'

-the flavor profile comparative of the two samples is very close: The Original has a very slightly more acidic overall impact on the palate, but I would not call it 'citrus' but just a slightly lower pH that can be detected on the tongue. The clone lacks this component so it gives the clone a more rounded and mellower feel on the palate. I don't want to overstate this, as the slight acidic feel is very very subtle and does not take the overall profile away from its good result as a 'very passable clone'

Image

Image

User avatar
Kinnikinnick
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:43 pm
Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Kinnikinnick »

I’m glad you’re having success in creating the clone of RY with the single leaf varietals in your stock. Cloning any liquid has always been a very frustrating, hit or miss project on my part.

Many of the reviews I’ve read on the Peterson’s RY have been wildly different from each other. There’s a lot of “love/hate” opinions out there on the matter.

My best guess on what makes each batch better or worse, would be the feedstock used in the process. The leaf from year to year is not going to be the same. Thus, there are going to be changes to the flavor of the tobacco over time. Again... just one man’s opinion on the matter.

User avatar
Peter_Ramish
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: California

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Peter_Ramish »

I came across this very interesting discussion of Va/Per tobacco blends while reading the "Tobacco Talk" section of the www.SmokingPipes.com website.

Although the original Dunhill Royal Yacht blend is not specifically mentioned, I think this article does an excellent job to describe the framework into which many of these types of related blends belong. Note that he mentions "The increased portions of Perique bring about more spiciness, more plummy/figgy notes" .. This is exactly the flavor profile that the Original Royal Yacht falls into, and why so many reviews note what is claimed as the "plum note" that they notice. So, therefore, I stand justified in my use of Perique when cloning this blend. :D Another interesting item he repeatedly mentions in many different ways, is that the addition of Perique results in various flavor profiles that are very different from each of the pure leafs used alone.

Full credit goes to the original article published: July 18, 2019 by Kaz C. Walters in Tobacco Talk

=================================

Virginia and Perique mixtures, or VA/Pers as they are sometimes referred to, are pipe tobacco blends consisting of one or more varieties of Virginias that have been lightly spiced with a small portion of Perique. Traditionally, the percentage of Perique in a blend is only three to five percent, introduced to augment and enhance the existing flavors of the Virginias. This low percentage is not only because of the dominating characteristics of the Perique, but also its substantial cost.

As most Perique enthusiasts already know, Perique is processed only in St. James Parish, Louisiana, and must be fermented in oak barrels under extremely high pressure for approximately a year. The process is slow, and can have a high failure rate if oxygen manages to leak into the barrels, which of course contributes to the expensive nature of the varietal. For centuries, Perique has been used in tobacco blends like salt in culinary creations — just enough to enhance the overall flavor (if you can taste salt in a dish, you've added too much. That's the same way Perique was used.)

Modern Virginia/Perique mixtures don't hold so fast to this rule as, with the passing of the ages and the blending experiments that came with them, blenders discovered that Perique in large quantities can present exquisite flavors, as long as the dark, pungent leaf is in balance with the other components. Over time, the definition of a Perique blend has broadened. In this writing I will define the blending styles as I understand them, as well as provide examples of such blends, should readers like to explore and experience the spectrum of the style.

Traditional Virginia Perique Mixtures

As has already been stated, Perique has been a delicacy in the tobacco world since Pierre Chenet developed it in 1824. It's very labor intensive and time consuming to produce, has a comparatively low threshold for success compared to other processing methods (such as fire or flue curing), and is processed only in one small region of Louisiana, leaving entire years' worth of crops often dependent on the cooperation of the weather. All of these factors contribute to the overall expense of Perique, but the final results have shown themselves to be well worth that time and expense.

Traditionally, the percentage of Perique in a blend is only three to five percent, introduced to augment and enhance the existing flavors of the Virginias.

What starts as a strain of Burley becomes a pungent, fruity, earthy, spicy, strong, fermented tobacco that packs a wallop of both flavor and strength, able to bring the absolute best out of the bright, bready, citrusy flavors of flue-cured Virginia tobacco — even in very small amounts. The best examples of the traditional Virginia/Perique blend are largely Virginia forward with added nuance from a condimental addition of Perique. Blends in this style still in production include Rattray's Hal o' the Wynd and Old Gowrie, Escudo Navy Deluxe, Samuel Gawith's St. James Flake, and (for a slightly higher Perique presence), G.L. Pease's Stratford, to name a few, and will all present stellar Virginia flavor with subtle hints of fruit or spice and a depth and strength that they would not possess without Perique.

Modern Virginia and Perique Mixtures

As with all things, blending styles develop and change over time. Blenders experiment, convention is dismissed, and sometimes people just want something new. In recent decades we have seen Perique levels rise in blends, particularly boutique blends, and it doesn't look like these mixtures are going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Pipe tobaccos that I would name as being "modern" would be Cornell & Diehl's Bayou Morning (advertised as having 25% Perique), Chenet's Cake (35% Perique), and Kajun Kake (Perique content not listed, but definitely higher than conventional VA/Pers).

These blends, while containing the two required components for a traditional Virginia/Perique, really don't resemble their predecessors (they ain't your grandfather's VA/Pers). The increased portions of Perique bring about more spiciness, more plummy/figgy notes, and noticeably more strength. While nuance from the Virginia is often sacrificed with this blending style, a new profile is gained and whole new spectrums of flavors are introduced by the Perique. It wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to think of these tobaccos as "Perique and Virginia" blends, rather than Virginia and Perique.

Perique-based Mixtures

We've reached the final category: Perique-based mixtures. These tobaccos are still included in the "VA/Per" family, but I've argued that they don't fit the label. Until there are enough available on the market to argue for the establishment of a new category, I just view them as the rebellious "black sheep" of the Virginia/Perique family. Blends that have been based on Perique's attributes (and that in some instances include very little Virginia) are usually full-bodied, medium to full strength, and surprisingly varied in flavor to have been built around such a bold tobacco, often sharing characteristics of other blend "families."

Examples of such blends include G.L. Pease's Haddo's Delight, inspired by Aleister Crowley, famed adept of the Order of the Golden Dawn who enjoyed straight rum-soaked Perique, is a unique blend heavy in Perique with some Virginias, Burley, unsweetened Black Cavendish and a delightfully boozy topping (making this mixture perfect for smokers seeking a slightly aromatic experience); Mac Baren's HH Acadian Perique, which combines dark Acadian Perique with a touch of Virginia and unsweetened Black Cavendish for richness and sweetness, delicately spiced with Burley, Dark-Fired Kentucky, and Orientals (I personally see this as an English-style blend without Latakia); and finally Cornell & Diehl's Exclusive, which contains a whopping 50 percent Perique with some Red Virginia and Burley for a stout, earthy, slightly sweet experience.

When a fellow smoker exclaims "I smoke VA/Pers," or, "My favorite blends are Virginia/Perique mixtures," some further clarification may be required. Unlike Englishes, where one can safely assume a smoker who indulges in such must enjoy Latakia, or a friend who shares that they have a penchant for Aromatics must be coyly alluding to the fact that they have a sweet tooth, Virginia and Perique mixtures run the gamut of flavors and strengths. One who enjoyed the late Elizabethan Mixture may not find a new favorite in Bayou Morning (however I recommend they give Stratford a go!), and the smoker who appreciates Haddo's Delight may not be too excited about Escudo. Remember that variety is the spice of life; since my study of the dark Acadian leaf, I have concluded that the variety referred to in the old phrase must indeed be none other than Perique.

User avatar
Peter_Ramish
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: California

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Peter_Ramish »

Peter_Ramish wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:33 am
well, I guess I have been living under a rock, and i did not realize that the commercial blenders have tried their hannd at cloning this fine tobacco. This came to my attention when @ Kinnikinnick happened to send me a PM with a picture of the Peterson try at this old line tobacco.


OK, I have the Peterson extraction finished and filtered and so here is my A/B comparison. Note the A/B with two attys of identical make, model, wicking and wattage:

Image


The Peterson sample is more floral and definitely sweeter. And the base profile of the Peterson is more 'light-weight'. In contrast the Original Royal Yacht has a much more solid and pure tobacco base profile. I don't have a guess what Peterson added to get the sweeter floral component, it may be that they just used a more recent, less well aged Sweet Bright leaf Virginia. Or it may be that they added the mystery 'plum flavor' out of a bottle! -All the self styled expert reviewers never tire of claiming that plum is in the Original Dunhill mixture. Personally, I have never been able to pick out this 'plum' from the Original extraction. It could be that if it is there at all it does not transfer to the vape extraction. But I doubt that. I think it just that the 'plum thing' has been repeated so often in tobacco-reviews-dot-com mantras that it is the old story of a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.

To better explain and to give a frame of reference to these two samples, I would draw on the classic analogy of a Cuban Cigar versus a Nicaraguan work-a-like. Do not mis understand that explanatory comparison, neither of these is in any way "cigar-like", it is just that it occurred to me when doing the A/B that the shift in character between the two very much reminds me of similar shifts of two samples from my extensive background in the cigar world. When puffing on a Nicaraguan vrs a Cuban one gets that un mistakable awareness that one is much more 'solid' than the other. In the cigar world certain Nicaraguans have layers above composed of a certain sweetness and a certain floral and aromatic quality and a lighter tobacco base. Although the two can be very similar, and possibly fool you, the lighter sightly sweeter character is not present in the more earthy and sophisticated Cuban samples. The same sense contrast is here in this A/B of the Original Dunhill Royal Yacht vrs the Peterson re-make.

This is not to say that I am not enjoying the Peterson sample. It is very good for what it is. I could easily ADV it and not have a problem. These two are 'similar' , one is 'sort-of' like the other, but the floral sweetness of the Peterson sample pulls it away from the solid earthy melody line of the original. I prefer the original by a wide margin.

I can see what Peterson had in mind when they formulated this clone. I will rate it as a "passable-clone attempt". It fits right in with their other clone products like Royal Oak. Peterson bends these clone formulations to a lighter sweeter model which they seem to prefer. I think this is a marketing decision on their part. And, to be fair, I am being very critical in my testing, perhaps overly so. I can see that to the average pipe smoker this might well get a pass, and seem close enough to the original that they are satisfied.

In my opinion (TIS) the original sample from @Kinnikinnick has a membership in that rare club of very fine extractions that is in, for me, a group of the 5-Best of all time. But of course this is a highly TIS statement. However I must note that the clone does not make that rare grade.

I would encourage anyone to go ahead and do an extraction of the Peterson clone. It is OK, and worth the effort. You might like it, and find a place for it in your rotation.

User avatar
Kinnikinnick
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:43 pm
Location: Raleigh NC

Re: Trying to Clone Dunhill Royal Yacht

Post by Kinnikinnick »

I kinda figured the Peterson RY redux wasn’t quite going to match the original Dunhill version. ;)

But, I’m glad that you find it worthy of keeping the extraction in your stock supply. It would have been sad if it leaned towards being dumped down the drain.

I’m sure that leaf stock changes from year to year and the only thing which might remotely remain the same is the casing (if any) which is applied to the leaf during processing. I never picked up on any casing with the original RY. That flavor might have been activated during a combustion reaction? Who knows.

Sadly, I do wish I had cellared a few tins of the Dunhill version before they were all snapped up. That’s one of the reasons I purchase a tin of Solani Aged Burley Flake when it does hit the shelves. Yet another tobacco which will be missed by many when it becomes unobtainable. :cry:

Post Reply


cron